Comments for Aspectivity http://ramnivas.com/blog Thoughts on aspects of programming Tue, 26 Sep 2006 18:13:05 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.4 Comment on AOP: Myths and realities live at InfoQ.com by anjan bacchu http://ramnivas.com/blog/?p=26&cpage=1#comment-3670 anjan bacchu Tue, 26 Sep 2006 18:13:05 +0000 /?p=26#comment-3670 hi ramnivas, It would be nice to have the talk as an interview -- i.e, with text transcript so that I can read it while offline. I will post the same request to infoQ as well. BR, ~A hi ramnivas,

It would be nice to have the talk as an interview — i.e, with text transcript so that I can read it while offline.

I will post the same request to infoQ as well.

BR,
~A

]]> Comment on AOP Madness and Sanity: A Response by Nikhil http://ramnivas.com/blog/?p=23&cpage=1#comment-3665 Nikhil Fri, 22 Sep 2006 20:19:48 +0000 /?p=23#comment-3665 I keep reading articles trying to justify and argue against AOP. This seems frankly archaic, the concept is there and relevant. In general, I think the initial adoption for cross-cutting concerns is very obvious. For example, tracing is a good example. Another might be establishing of a robust test harnesses. What I do find missing is sufficient information on best practices and anti-patterns for AOP (apart from the myths "article" by Ramnivas, and a small handfull of such articles. I think in this space there is a lot of progress to be made to facilitate adoption. I keep reading articles trying to justify and argue against AOP. This seems frankly archaic, the concept is there and relevant. In general, I think the initial adoption for cross-cutting concerns is very obvious. For example, tracing is a good example. Another might be establishing of a robust test harnesses.

What I do find missing is sufficient information on best practices and anti-patterns for AOP (apart from the myths “article” by Ramnivas, and a small handfull of such articles. I think in this space there is a lot of progress to be made to facilitate adoption.

]]> Comment on Javapolis Experience by stephan http://ramnivas.com/blog/?p=21&cpage=1#comment-2948 stephan Sat, 18 Mar 2006 15:51:22 +0000 /?p=21#comment-2948 Hey Ramnivas, your JavaPolis 2005 talk on "What's new in AOP?" is now available on our wiki @ www.javapolis.com :o) Hey Ramnivas, your JavaPolis 2005 talk on “What’s new in AOP?” is now available on our wiki @ http://www.javapolis.com :o )

]]> Comment on AOP Madness and Sanity: A Response by Mohan Radhakrishnan http://ramnivas.com/blog/?p=23&cpage=1#comment-2892 Mohan Radhakrishnan Mon, 13 Mar 2006 06:42:42 +0000 /?p=23#comment-2892 Narendra's comment is very interesting. In the past 8 months I have come across so many problems that can be solved by AOP more elegantly and many of those don't have a proper OO solution. If I had actually tried to find AOP problems for 10 years I could written a couple of AOP books. Narendra’s comment is very interesting. In the past 8 months I have come across so many problems that can be solved by AOP more elegantly and many of those don’t have a proper OO solution. If I had actually tried to find AOP problems for 10 years I could written a couple of AOP books.

]]> Comment on AOP Madness and Sanity: A Response by Jonas http://ramnivas.com/blog/?p=23&cpage=1#comment-2884 Jonas Fri, 10 Mar 2006 03:25:38 +0000 /?p=23#comment-2884 Thanks Ramnivas. Very well written (as usual), right to the point. /Jonas Thanks Ramnivas.
Very well written (as usual), right to the point.
/Jonas

]]> Comment on AOP Madness and Sanity: A Response by jgehtland http://ramnivas.com/blog/?p=23&cpage=1#comment-2880 jgehtland Thu, 09 Mar 2006 17:24:19 +0000 /?p=23#comment-2880 Strange. In 5+ years of Java development, I've come across literally hundreds of problems that could have, and did, benefit from AOP (in its many guises). Dynamic proxies, transaction maangement, enterprise security, test-harnessing, and on and on and on. If one looks at AOP as a continuum from static proxies to dynamic proxies to woven interceptors, then the history of Java framework development over the last five years IS the story of AOP. Heck, in my world view, Servlet filters are step 0 on this path. I can certainly understand taking the viewpoint that Hamilton did if you are a platform purist (though I don't agree) but I really don't understand the blanket argument taht AOP is a solution without a problem. It is a more elegant solution to a lot of problems that people have been trying to solve in Java frameworks for a long time. Let's put it a different way: without AOP, Spring wouldn't be very useful. And Spring is certainly useful. Strange. In 5+ years of Java development, I’ve come across literally hundreds of problems that could have, and did, benefit from AOP (in its many guises). Dynamic proxies, transaction maangement, enterprise security, test-harnessing, and on and on and on. If one looks at AOP as a continuum from static proxies to dynamic proxies to woven interceptors, then the history of Java framework development over the last five years IS the story of AOP. Heck, in my world view, Servlet filters are step 0 on this path. I can certainly understand taking the viewpoint that Hamilton did if you are a platform purist (though I don’t agree) but I really don’t understand the blanket argument taht AOP is a solution without a problem. It is a more elegant solution to a lot of problems that people have been trying to solve in Java frameworks for a long time.

Let’s put it a different way: without AOP, Spring wouldn’t be very useful. And Spring is certainly useful.

]]> Comment on AOP Madness and Sanity: A Response by Ramnivas Laddad http://ramnivas.com/blog/?p=23&cpage=1#comment-2879 Ramnivas Laddad Thu, 09 Mar 2006 17:21:14 +0000 /?p=23#comment-2879 Narendra, <blockquote> But in last 10 years or so of professional programming I did not came across a single problem which could benefit from AOP. </blockquote> Take a look at <a href="http://manning.com/books/laddad/contents">TOC of AspectJ in Action</a> or <a href="http://manning.com/books/laddad/source">examples in downloadable sources</a> or a list of problems mentioned on this <a href="http://www.theserverside.com/news/thread.tss?thread_id=39026">TSS thread</a>. How did you solve those problems while avoiding duplicated code? <blockquote> I will be glad to hear from you (years before people will take you seriously) if you have that innovation in works. </blockquote> People are already taking me and other AOP proponents seriously! Sure there are a few who don't. But that is to be expected. Not everyone understands the value proposition of every technology they come across. I, for sure, have failed to recognize value proposition of a few technologies until much later. -Ramnivas Narendra,

But in last 10 years or so of professional programming I did not came across a single problem which could benefit from AOP.

Take a look at TOC of AspectJ in Action or examples in downloadable sources or a list of problems mentioned on this TSS thread. How did you solve those problems while avoiding duplicated code?

I will be glad to hear from you (years before people will take you seriously) if you have that innovation in works.

People are already taking me and other AOP proponents seriously! Sure there are a few who don’t. But that is to be expected. Not everyone understands the value proposition of every technology they come across. I, for sure, have failed to recognize value proposition of a few technologies until much later.

-Ramnivas

]]> Comment on AOP Madness and Sanity: A Response by narendra http://ramnivas.com/blog/?p=23&cpage=1#comment-2877 narendra Thu, 09 Mar 2006 16:35:28 +0000 /?p=23#comment-2877 A long while ago when aspectj was still a project at xerox parc lab in release (until I guess it was relase .5 or .6) I gave it a long and hard look. That time java did not had anything like that. Annotations were not there and proxies had just entered the scene (I am not sure of that either). What I was trying to figure at that time was if aop would revolutionize the programming as much as oop did. That time I reached the conclusion that it would never happen. Reason was simple, it is a solution which can be applied only to a very small set of real world problem. So I decided to forget about it. After several years I suddenly started hearing about AOP again. This time it was thanks to JBOSS. Wow what a difference a company can make. When Microsoft came with xmlhttp control nobody in java world cared. Suddenly there is AJAX when google started using it. Now any java shop will gladly use it. Same is the case with AOP. Now my friend coming back to your blog, you make a strong case for AOP. It is a nice tool if you have a task which needs it. But in last 10 years or so of professional programming I did not came across a single problem which could benefit from AOP. In the end I do agree with your contention that for java to remain front runner (in the race of cutting edge in languages) it needs some serious innovation. Its just that AOP is not the innovation which would do that. You will need to look else where. I will be glad to hear from you (years before people will take you seriously) if you have that innovation in works. A long while ago when aspectj was still a project at xerox parc lab in release (until I guess it was relase .5 or .6) I gave it a long and hard look. That time java did not had anything like that. Annotations were not there and proxies had just entered the scene (I am not sure of that either). What I was trying to figure at that time was if aop would revolutionize the programming as much as oop did. That time I reached the conclusion that it would never happen. Reason was simple, it is a solution which can be applied only to a very small set of real world problem. So I decided to forget about it. After several years I suddenly started hearing about AOP again. This time it was thanks to JBOSS. Wow what a difference a company can make. When Microsoft came with xmlhttp control nobody in java world cared. Suddenly there is AJAX when google started using it. Now any java shop will gladly use it. Same is the case with AOP. Now my friend coming back to your blog, you make a strong case for AOP. It is a nice tool if you have a task which needs it. But in last 10 years or so of professional programming I did not came across a single problem which could benefit from AOP. In the end I do agree with your contention that for java to remain front runner (in the race of cutting edge in languages) it needs some serious innovation. Its just that AOP is not the innovation which would do that. You will need to look else where. I will be glad to hear from you (years before people will take you seriously) if you have that innovation in works.

]]> Comment on AOP Madness and Sanity: A Response by iyad http://ramnivas.com/blog/?p=23&cpage=1#comment-2876 iyad Thu, 09 Mar 2006 15:40:53 +0000 /?p=23#comment-2876 I second what you are saying, you presented very well what i wanted to say.. on other note.. Reflection can obscure the wokflow and make the program flow difficult to understand I second what you are saying, you presented very well what i wanted to say..

on other note.. Reflection can obscure the wokflow and make the program flow difficult to understand

]]> Comment on AOP Madness and Sanity: A Response by Robert http://ramnivas.com/blog/?p=23&cpage=1#comment-2875 Robert Thu, 09 Mar 2006 15:06:44 +0000 /?p=23#comment-2875 Very well written! Thank you! Very well written! Thank you!

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